ohio and florida. polls showing a very small pool of undecided voters left. it's important for mitt romney as he tries to steady his campaign. joining us for a debate of their own, democratic governor of massachusetts, devalue patrick and kelly welcome to both of you. >> thanks, david. >> a lot to get to. let's start with the issue of taxes. mitt romney's tax returns showing in 2011 he paid 14%. he didn't have a job. this was interest income. governor, should this end the debate or should there be more? >> i understand people's interest and curiosity about the tax returns. his dad said tax returns for presidential candidate should be produced way back many years and i think it produced 20 years worth of tax returns when he was considered vice president.

the more important issue is what is it he plans to do with my taxes and yours and everybody els. he has a tax plan where he's talking $5 trillion in tax cut, adding to the deficit, no way to pay for it and no idea about what the impact is. >> the question of more returns and what they are holding, you don't think it's appropriate -- >> i think it's a fair question. the bigger question is what is it he plans to do with everybody else's taxes? >> there's a bigger picture question as well in "the washington post." i want to put a portion of it on the screen for viewers. here is a headline. in 2011, romney made money while unemployed. compare romney to a single mother of two who works full time at walmart who takes earned income tax credit and whose

children get health insurance through medicaid. he couldn't get her to take personal responsibility. romney doesn't have to take responsibility for earning money anymore. he's beyond that and carried the belief into policy proposals. his platform matches his comments. he won't raise taxes for the rich. >> david, i think what governor romney wants is to make sure that mother has a good job, a better paying job. where we are with this economy, think about it. we have added 15 million -- being people to the food stamp -- excuse me, millions during this presidency. we have 47 million on food stamps. it's unfortunate. they want to get off food stamps and have good jobs. where the economy is, so many people lost hope. for every job added, four people left the work force because the president, let's not forget the president and democrats were in charge the first two years.

the policies they passed didn't deal with where they are as the economy. think about the stimulus. his team represented we would be below 6%. >> immaterial to talk about tax return. 14% in an affected tax rate. does it make it harder for governor romney to reach out to average americans and say i get you. i i'm vote for me. >> he tried. we talked about the stimulus. they staid they would be below 6%. we have had 43 straight months in a raise on unemployment. the lowest labor participation rate, people are leaving the work force. where governor romney is saying we wants opportunity and upward mobility for that mother. >> it's not something we saw out

of the speech. in context let's play a portion of that and see exactly what his vision was. watch. >> all right, 47% who are with him, who are depend enlt upon government who believe that they are victims and who believe the government has a response kt to them and believe they are entitled to housing and food. you name it. it's an entitlement. they will vote for this president no matter what. i won't get those votes. >> senator, they see themselves as victims. he says he's really for the 100% in america. is anybody going to buy that given that dim vision of half the country? >> you know, david, that was a political analysis at a fund-raiser. it's not a governing philosophy. he has a vision of 100% of america. it's different from this president. we have to look back at the policies of this president and

where we are as an economy. >> before we get to that particular argument, do you see 47% of the country that see themselves as victims? >> what i see is what the government sees. i see 15 million more people on food stamps that don't want to be there. 47 million americans that want a good job. they don't want to be on unemployment. here we are with this administration, the tax regulatory policies. adding $5 trillion to the debt. those opportunities aren't there for them. that's what this is about. >> it's shocking to me that a candidate could aspire to be president by turning his back on half the country. that's what came through. i think -- i can tell you as someone who grew up on welfare and spent time on food stamps, my mother was just the kind of person the senator is describing, aspiring to get to a better place to get her g.e.d.,

get a job, to stand on her own two feet. the notion that she or we or people like us would be belittled while we needed help to be able to stand on our own two feet is exactly what governor romney is conveying. >> do you think president obama has not said to a group of donors, look, there are certain segments in the electorate that are not going to vote for me? why not see it as political analysis? >> i don't think that's what the president said or ever said. what he's done is govern for all of the people. the president has, you know, he's advanced policy that is are not popular with his base. he did them because he thought they were important for the future of this country. it's the leadership we need. >> let's talk about the issues, the 47% get to. the question of government dependence as you referenced, here are snapshots nationally

that raised eyebrows and governor romney talked about. you talk about food stamps. 47 million americans on food stamps up from four years ago. here is a broader picture from the wall street journal over time, if you go back to the early '80s and look at the trajectory, 49% receiving some kind of government benefit. is government dependent at a place where it's out of control? >> well, david, i think where we are is too many people have to rely on food stamps or unemployment benefits instead of a good job. natch rlly, what this comes down to, to think so many people left the work force where every job added, four people left. let's not forget the president and the democrats had two years. what did they do? they passed health care reform where the president said the premiums would go down. they have gone up. this week, a report that 6

million middle class americans will get the tax penalties and the president's health care reform. the policies that he pushed when they were in charge did not address the problems and that's why we need new leadership, making sure we get people working again and someone who has that private experience to turn the economy around. >> i want to agree with some of what the senator said about the fact there are more people on food stamps because we are in a terrible economy. i would submit most of those people, if not all, want a job and we have to be about strengthening this economy. adding 4.6 million private sector jobs, the president has more in that time than george w. bush added in eight years is an indeed profound example of the progress we are making and the policies offered by governor romney have shown themselves to fail. this notion of benefiting the very fortunate exclusively and

letting it tricking down is something that has been shown to fail in the past. we should not go back. >> this is a bigger question, partly a political question. you are a supporter to governor romney in new hampshire. here is reality. he offered political analysis but policy analysis on 47% of this country, including a lot of republican voters, people who see entitlements through social security and medicare that they paid into saying they will not take personal response nlt. it's a lack of understanding how the government works and how america works. you think he needs to go beyond saying he is flat wrong? >> i have to say this, david. i totally disagree with your analysis of this. i campaigned with him. i know he cares about every single american in this country and that he has the vision, unlike this president, where we are today, we are declining. we need to come out of this to think about where we are with --

this president has more months of over 8% of unemployment than the last 11 president's combined. if you think about governor romney, he wants opportunity and upward mobility. he wants people to have that good paying job. that's what his campaign is about. think about the policies of the last two years. they are brought more unemployment. we need people to have a good paying job. i hear from small business every day. the right tax. these are mom and pop businesses that feel burdened by this administration. >> he was talking 50% of americans who pay no federal income tax and too dependent on the government. to do everything for them, housing, food, et cetera. you are not responsive on that point. on the tax question, i pose this question, the virginia senate debate between tim kaine and george allen.

they were talking about there there should be a minimum federal income tax. here is the question. do you believe everyone should pay income tax? >> everyone pays taxes. the statistics coming out -- i would be open to a proposal to have a minimum tax for everyone. >> would you be open to that, governor? >> maybe. it's my first time hearing about it. >> that's where i was going. i think we go to a question of taxes, tax cuts, tax increases and so forth too fast. the first question ought to be what is it we want the governor to do and not do? what is the sensible and fair way to pay for that? we all have a stake in educating our kids. we all have a stake in ensuring this country is well defended and investing in an

infrastructure for growth. we all have a say in the american dream. we used to come together around that. the kind of sharp, poisonous political discourse that characterizes so much of what goes on. no disrespect at all, not just personal, in saying that, but i think the country is hungry for a conviction base leadership, frankly the kind -- >> david, the irony of this, of course, the president ran as somebody who was going to unite the people. listen to the way he's trying to divide us, whether it's rich versus poor, have versus have notes and wanting to bring people together and blaming republicans or all the problems on other areas or other people. think about the comment this week about you can't change washington from inside. he had two years in charge. i agree with the governor, we need leadership that unites and leadership of someone thinking

about having those opportunities so we are not in a position where 47 -- >> you are not blaming the president for pinning classes after each other after gor romney said 47% of the country are free loaders. >> to listen to what the governor is saying, i appreciate what he's saying, but if you look at what the president said, his leadership on policy failed and he is not the united force. >> i want to continue on one point, if i can. the issue of the president's record. it has to do with high unemployment. something that caught our eye as we were looking. this comment from the chairman from the black caucus, congressman from missouri spoke to the group on monday. this is what he wrote. i'm supposed to say he doesn't get a pass. i'm not going say that. as a chair of the black caucus, i have to tell you, we are

hesitant to criticize the president. pretty single criticism from the chairman. >> i respect the chairman of the black caucus and the fact that there is 14%, if that's the right number, unemployment among black people. among young people, the unemployment rate is higher than the national average as well. nobody is prepared to declare victory. we had the worst economic environment in a generation or two, since the great depression. that was caused, by the way, of the policies governor romney is urging on the country. this president turned that around. this president showed he is able to swim against the current and make change. we see more people with health care in this country than ever before. more private sector jobs. we have seen the automobile industry saved. we have seen the financial industry saved. we have seen the country brought

back from the brink of depression. are we done? of course not. but western certainly on a better course and pointed in the right direction. >> what i heard was that this president needs more time. but, where we are, if you think about it, this is the worst economic recovery since world war ii. full charge of the congress, they pushed forward a health care bill where people are paying more for premiums. middle class is hit with the tax penalty where the regulatory climate for the country is not going create that job. the governor has a plan to make sure we simplify a lower rate, make it a better tax climate for everyone to get people to work. our regulatory climate where small businesses want to thrive and grow. it's been the opposite with this president. he tried, but policy failed. >> let me end on one issue. it's the issue of education. a summit we are beginning,

education nation today. >> thank you for that. >> it's important. we are committed to it. part of that is a conversation with president obama that "today" show's savannah guthrie conducted. i want to play a portion of that. >> mitt romney said that president obama has chosen his side in this fight. you sided with the union. another time last spring, he said he can't talk up reform while endulging in group that is block it. >> i think governor romney and a number of folks try to politicize the issue and do a lot of teacher bashing. when i meet teachers across the country, they are so devoted, so dedicated to their kids. what we tried to do is actually breakthrough this left, right conservative gridlock. it's what my key reform has been about, the race to the senate. >> more of that education nation

interview with president obama tuesday and wednesday on the "today" show. plus, a live conversation at education nation on tuesday. quickly, from both of you, governor have we moved beyond this union/pro-union, anti-union debate? >> we better. students are number one in the nation and have been for a few years. we are in the top three in the world in math and science. we have the most unionized education system, i think, in the country. the unions have been at the table with us on reform for more than a decade. indeed, we move to build a couple years ago to close the achievement gap. >> senator? >> i guess i would ask mayor emanuel where we are right now. i think this is clearly an issue. it's a very important issue, the chicago strike and obviously, governor romney believes kids first, unions last. most importantly, where condoleezza rice hit it are

conventions. giving parents and empowering parents, minority students, poor students, that is a civil rights issue. unfortunately, the president in areas like the opportunity scholarship turned his back on that. that's where we need to go. >> we'll leave it there. thank you. a note to viewers, a question that comes up a lot. we have a long standing invitation for president obama to appear on this program. we hope he will choose to do so before the election. if you missed romney's return, you can watch the interview on "meet the press." our political round table weighing in on the rough week for mitt romney. can he turn the campaign around? joining us on the round table, romney senior adviser, buchanan. joe scarborough, david brooks of the new york times and democratic strategist, meyers.

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good evening. i'm seth myers. here are tonight's top stories. mitt romney on friday released his 2011 tax returns, which showed he paid a 14% tax rate, so just a little less than what restaurants add on for parties of six or more. [ laughter ] the 14% tax rate romney paid is less than the 20% paid by the average american. how did he pay such a low rate? he claimed 47% of americans as departments. [ laughter ] and we're back. that was "saturday night live" having some fun with mitt romney and the tax debate. we're going to get into all of that with our roundtable. joining us, host of msnbc's "morning joe," joe scarborough. senior adviser to the romney campaign bay buchanan.

the democratic mayor of atlanta kasim reed. and first, you saw him lurking in the background, our political director chuck todd, here with some of the new polls in the battleground states. so when team romney says it's tight, that's not the full story. >> it isn't. look at the battleground polls. this is everything that has come out in the last week in different states. and i just want to highlight a couple here. look at michigan. 14-point gap here for the president. obviously, the republicans would like to try to put michigan in play. doesn't look like it's the case. look at iowa. and i highlight that because iowa has been a toss-up state. something that has been in the middle of the battleground. guess what? we decided it is no longer in the battleground. that eight-point lead, you now put it in president obama's column. so he sits at 243. what does that mean? it means now he's just one state away from 270. if you just give him florida, he sits at 272. but then if you look and if you

look at virginia -- excuse me, virginia and ohio, two states the president had seven-point leads, and you give him those two, excuse me here, and it puts him at 274. so he's now -- we're sitting there and have shrunk the battleground, david. we have put the president obviously sitting there with a tough lead. and what has all of this done? it's all because of one thing here, and that is economic optimism. i want to show something from our last nbc/"wall street journal" poll. 42% now have optimistic views that the economy will get better in the next 12 months, the best number in almost three years, david. >> chuck todd, thank you very much. from the numbers, you also have the narrative. here is the detroit free press after that tape recording about the 47%. here was the headline. romney's 47% remark, will it sink the campaign? joe scarborough, how much trouble is the romney campaign in this morning? and what changes it? >> well, they're in a lot of

trouble this morning, but thank god for them that the election's about 45 days off. they are tied in national polls and we republicans believe -- we conservatives still believe that a rising tide lifts all boats. so we've got four debates coming up. i personally think that romney is a very calculating data driven guy. you tell him you got 90 seconds to answer a question on libya, he's probably going to have a good answer. he's going to do well in the debates. i think ryan is going to do well in the debates. we've got a long way to go. so it's not over. that said, the trajectory of the campaign has to change. this has been a horrific week for them. even the romney people behind the scenes will tell you, the libya press conference was a nightmare for them. even worse than this 47% video. they've got to right the ship. if they do, long way to go. >> the romney campaign -- in fact, the candidate himself, telling "60 minutes" tonight there is no need for a turn-around in this campaign.

david brooks, you wrote a stinging column that got a lot of attention this week, and the headline was, thurston howell romney, referring to "gilligan's island." this suggests he doesn't know about the country and who inhabits it. who are the free loaders? the student getting a loan to go to college or the retiree on social security or medicare? personally, i think he is a kind decent man who says stupid things because he's pretending to be something he's not, some sort of cartoonish government hater. but it scarcely matters. he is running a depresley inept campaign. when will the incompetence stop? >> i had a chance to have dinner with tom clancy, and he was enthusing over some gun. and i was sitting, you can't fake it. if you don't have a passion for those kind of guns, you can't write those kind of tom clancy novels.

mitt romney doesn't have a passion for the things he's talking about. he is a problem solver. he is faking it. so if i were him, i'd go to what he's been for the last several decades of his life, be a power point guy. say i'm making a sales pitch to the country. here are the four things i'm going to reform. you don't have to love me, but i'll do these four things for me. i'd do a much more detailed thing than he's done so far. >> bay, do you have to look at this 47% comment, which was detailed that frankly went beyond political analysis and do more than say, hey, this was political analysis, not a governing philosophy, this was inelegant? do you have to somehow make amends in a way he has not done yet? >> you know, david, if the -- the press is not going to change, and of course our opponents aren't. they want to mischaracterize what he said. what he was saying is the 47% is going to be voting. this is what it looks like, a solid base of the president. and included in those people are people i'm going to have a hard time reaching. you know, there's people who are dependent on government.

some who even feel they are owed something by government. and many of them don't pay income tax. and my message doesn't work for them. that's all he was saying. he never said he didn't care about them. that he's not concerned about them. >> his words were, i don't have to worry about them. that's a direct quote. >> but in a general election. he has to worry about the 6%. sure, we'd like to take off some of the cream on that 47%. i saw one poll has the president down to 46. maybe we will. but his focus in the general election is the 6% he can get. that he has a terrific chance of getting. and he will fight for them. and as president, he will fight for those who are dependent on government. this president has given us a terrible record. americans can't get off their dependency. and it's longer and longer, and it's going to be more difficult. there's no jobs to get them out. what mitt romney offers to those americans is a way, a ladder, to climb out of that mess. opportunity and jobs again. >> is that how you see his comments this week, the 47%? >> i don't think that this is even a question of

mischaracterization. all you have to do is listen to the whole piece. his comments were terrible. what he implied was that 47% of the people are basically free dlootloaders. it was offensive. this isn't a case of mischaracterization. what it shows is that republicans have a candidate that's defective, and it shouldn't be surprising to them. he has made these mistakes repeatedly. the best analysis of this election this year that i've heard was from a republican friend that i was having dinner with. he said that this guy is defective. he said he's like being a bad nascar driver on a rich team. he said no matter how good the car is, no matter how bad the pit crew is, the driver has to drive the car. and this guy puts it on the wall every single time. he puts it on the -- wait a minute, ma'am. i let you speak. he puts it on the wall when he says let gm go bankrupt. he puts it on the wall when he says 47% of the people, i don't have to concern myself with. he puts on the wall when he travels across the east and goes to the uk, offends one of our

strongest allies. he repeatedly puts it on the wall and makes mistakes. and that's why we are where we are 45 days out. >> what is his biggest negative that he has to deal with? does he connect with average voters? >> does he have any understanding at all life outside the bubble that he's lived in? and there is no point in his life with the possible exception of his mormon mission to paris where he's intentionally gotten himself outside of his comfort zone and going -- >> i don't know if going to paris -- >> it may have been the suburbs of paris, ok? come on. >> it was actually bordeaux. >> it may have been normandy. >> every turn of his life, even in his generosity, and he's been extremely generous, but it was always in the context of a very limited universe. he really has no feel for what real people are doing. >> i don't think that's fair. >> that's inaccurate. >> no, it's not. every turn of this campaign when he's spoken, how does he enjoy

sport, he likes to sort of hang out with the team owners. when he travels around, he is most comfortable speaking to -- >> he calls it sport? >> some of this is caricature. >> but talking to fundraisers. that's where he goes off script and talks more expansively about what his plans are and how -- >> look at the people he's helped. he's helped alcoholic mormons. immigrants. and frankly illegal immigrants. he's nursed kids who are dying. he gave $4 million to charity in one year. if you look at his private life, all through his life, he has given to charity. >> we know in 2011 he -- >> he has the perfect life story for a compassionate conservative campaign because he's lived that life. the problem is he's running a different campaign. george bush, ronald reagan, jack kemp, they looked at people in the community colleges and said, ok, maybe they are on food stamps but taking two buses, working two jobs, going to school, and conservatism is how those people rise. he hasn't translated that.

>> that's the biggest problem with the 47%. i really don't think that's going to change a vote. i really don't. i do believe, though, it is deflated conservatives at the "wall street journal," conservatives like david, conservatives like myself, conservatives on talk radio. we believe in smaller government because we believe, like jack kemp believed, like ronald reagan believed, that that's how you help the most people. i will say still without apology i believe a rising tide lifts all boats. i believe you unshackle individuals and they can prosper in this country. what's so disturbing about that video is like you said, david, mitt romney doesn't get it. he doesn't believe it. and that's what comes through. margaret thatcher, shopkeeper's daughter, would have never said that in a million years. >> never. >> and, you know, this is just like four to one. i should be allowed to speak, you know, for each one of these people here. >> wait, wait, wait. you don't like the margaret

thatcher fan or ronald reagan fan? >> please, let me make a point here. >> don't put me as a four to one. i'm not. i'm a small government conservative. >> on this set, you appear to be one of the four. >> i'm also with the "wall street journal" editorial page and i'm also with every conservative. i'm with rush. i'm with -- you name the conservative, they have my concern, bay. please don't characterize me as being one of these four. go ahead, bay. >> we're not that bad. >> what's wrong with us? >> i love them all. but i'm not one of them. >> to characterize the personal life of mitt romney as dee dee has is to show that she does not know the man. she does not know what he has done. >> i know what he's done. >> this is a man who has spent a life in serving others. that is the basis of what he believes, and he has given. >> i'm not questioning that, bay. i'm not saying that. >> yes, you are. >> no, i'm not. >> number two, we are in perilous times in this country. we are looking at financial ruin. we are looking at dndsy. we're a nation of people

dependent on their government. and that is what barack obama gives us. and he promises more of that in four more years. this election will decide if we take that path or with mitt romney, if we take a path where we actually allow people, those who are troubled now, those who can't make ends meet, those relying on food stamps to pay for their -- >> you can defend governor romney, that's fine. but this is just -- these are political talking points more than being responsive to some of the political reality. the political reality, the unfavorable ratings of mitt romney, you're a political professional. you understand how campaigns operate. if people don't know it, who bears the blame for that? look at his high unfavorable ratings at 50%, the highest of any candidate running in recent memory. this is an image problem that his philosophical statements in this speech in may to fundraisers only exacerbates. >> but it's because of the way it has been falsely interpreted, deliberately so, i might add. >> by david? >> by joe scarborough. by -- this is nonsense.

no, no, i'm sorry. i have to cut this off. david brooks -- >> which side are you on? you are taking this country -- >> the "wall street journal" editorial page. laura ingram. rush limbaugh. i can go on and on. if you want to -- >> rush limbaugh -- >> if you want to blame the media for mitt romney's inept campaign, peggy noonan said it best, this is a nightmare of a campaign. and the most troubling thing is, it's not that a lot of us republicans don't think he can win. we do believe he can win. but when he says he has no need to turn this campaign around, after a disastrous week, where you see ohio slipping away, wisconsin slipping away, iowa slipping away, michigan slipping away, that is a political concern. not an ideological concern. that is a political concern. >> let me step back for just a second. david brooks, you're looking at both the substantive debate taking place about the record of two candidates, biographies of two candidates, but also where we are politically in a state of this campaign.

if we pull back, how do you diagnose where he goes next? where he tries to go next? >> he has to look at what the president's weakness is. he's never going to win a popularity contest. as you said, least popular candidate in history. where the president's weakness? he has no second term agenda. he put out a great album in 2008. but he doesn't have an agenda now because he's intellectually exhausted. so here's where i think you have to say, here is my agenda. the best political speech of this campaign, bill clinton's, was the wankiest. and that should be his wheelhouse, power point. i'm going to reform four institutions. the tax code, entitlements, energy, and make the political system work. don't love me, but i will do these four things for you. >> david, the problem with that is you can't run for president saying i'll tell you later. he hasn't told us. and what we know -- >> you can say that about barack obama. >> i've waited for everybody on

the table. >> but you need to tell barack obama that. >> i will. but i tell you what, what he hasn't told us is how you take a $5 trillion tax cut in this economy and then spend an additional $1 million to $2 million on defense spending, expand the military by 100,000 troops, and pay for it without cutting -- without costing the middle class. which he hasn't told us that. and all he says is we'll tell you later. >> what's the most significant law barack obama has proposed for his second term? >> well, for the second term he's been focused on jobs. >> no, no, no. >> wait a minute now. the american jobs act is a legitimate proposal. that is based primarily around infrastructure, which republicans and democrats have traditionally agreed on. and if you go to the facts, it kept the country from going into a great depression. >> did it really? >> oh, yes, it did. under your guy, george bush, we lost 3.5 million jobs in the last -- >> hold on. >> let him finish.

>> just finish the point and then i'll go to joe. >> barack obama has produced more net private sector jobs than george w. bush. if we want to go to the facts and be patriots and put the country first, we can look at the america recovery and reinvestment act. 10% of that $70 billion spent generated 35 -- >> what are the pillars of a second term for president obama? >> well, first of all there, is no pillar for the second term. you know, i used the example in 2008 he was elvis 1957. 2012, he's looking more like elvis in '77. he's singing the old hits. he doesn't believe it himself. the president doesn't bring up the stimulus act. if it was such a great boon for american workers he would have brought it up. he didn't bring up obama care. listen, he has no plan over the next four years. and i agree with david. if mitt romney wants to win, he

needs to come forward and tell people how he can get them back to work. we can talk about medicare reform, which i believe in. we can talk about reducing the debt, which i fought for for 15 years. but until you tell people how you're going to get them back to work, how you're going to help the working class do better, how you're going to help people pay for their children's education, they're not going to listen to you and neither candidate is talking about that. >> bay, comment before the break here. >> there's no question and the romney campaign knows, we're bringing out those details as we speak. there's no question there. to go to this gentleman's point, what the legacy of barack obama has been is quite clear. more and more debt placed on american people. millions and millions of people now on food stamps. the only way they can pay for their families. and embassies under siege. that's what we got from him. going back to the political point, this is where the romney campaign is today. we are in a dead heat. nationally, we have two polls showing a dead heat, a tie. and the momentum is ours.

you see that the president's numbers have come down. mitt romney's numbers are coming up. our polls and other polls out here have the one state after another, these close states, swing states, as a dead heat. or within the margin of error. so this -- >> no need for a turn-around? >> we need to -- look, we are five weeks out. and we're in a dead heat against the president of the united states. and we have the message when it comes to the economy. that's who the american people trust to be able to provide jobs and get people back where they can be working and proud of what they're doing. >> what's the message? >> the message is a clear one. >> how to get people back to work. >> this is the pass here. the foundation and the philosophy of the two campaigns. one, a more dependent nation and the other towards a people that are self-reliant where they can be proud again of the work they do, the product they produce, and how they take care of their family. we'll have more of this. look forward to the

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we're back with the roundtable. david, we've been talking about the need for governor romney to win some of the policy debates. you talked about entitlements. paul ryan appeared before the aarp convention talking about medicare. not exactly a great reception. watch. >> the first step to a stronger medicare is to repeal obama care. because it represents the worst of both worlds. >> boo! >> i had a feeling there would be mixed reaction, so let me get into it. >> paul ryan doesn't shrink from the fight. he'll go in front of any audience and talk about entitlements. he did it there. the promise was we're going to take on medicare and win this fight. is it working? >> well, every time i get sick of the republicans, then i hear the aarp and i'm glad i'm not a democrat. [ laughter ] >> you know, the basic formula here which ryan is laying out is the average medicare recipient

over the course of their life pays in about $150,000. they get out somewhere between $300,000 and $350,000. so that gap is being put on the next generation. that's the essential problem he's trying to lay out. so that's embedded in his plan. and i think it's a pretty good plan. but they are not making the argument for that plan for reasons which i guess i understand politically. but if you're going to embrace ryan, if you're going to take have i rena, tavienna. argue for the plan. and the democrats are running against a false ryan plan from 2011, not the one they are running on now. so i think it's crucial to solve this problem, and they have a plan which unfortunately romney and ryan are not talking about. >> and let's tip our hat to paul ryan, because you hear that he got booed at aarp, but he went through the demographics. he went through the numbers. he explained. it was not about ideology. it was about math, about how medicare was going bankrupt. if the aarp audience wanted to

boo him, it wasn't paul ryan's problem. that's a problem of people whose heads continue to get stuck in the sand. i wish mitt romney would show that courage. maybe he will. >> that's one of the complaints you hear from republicans, is that people -- the base looks at the choice of ryan and said, ok, great. now the romney campaign is going to take it on. instead of romney becoming more like ryan and getting into the details and being willing to fight for it, the opposite has happened. you saw ryan in that clip talking about the details, but that's not something we're seeing the campaign do on a regular basis. they'd be better off if they did. >> this is more about paul ryan being booed at aarp. this is about the american people not wanting to privatize medicare after they've been paying into it. it's not about paul ryan. he can make all the presentations he wants and lay out the facts, but the president did extend by medicare eight years. and more importantly, folks aren't buying, i'm going to take care of the people currently on the system. we're going to change it forever for everybody else. so the people who are --

>> but we have to do that. you know we have to do that. >> we have to do it as part of an overall budget deal, a $4 trillion deal, where we put everything on the table. if we want to get a deal, let's get an overall deal that puts $4 trillion on the table, that includes revenue raising. but paul ryan -- >> $4 trillion is a drop in the bucket. that's ridiculous. >> hold on one minute before you say ridiculous. whether it's $4 trillion or $6 trillion, to get a budget deal, we have to have revenue raising measures. you cannot implement paul ryan's plan while not allowing for any increases in revenue. >> it's clear -- first of all -- >> that's clear. >> governor romney showed enormous courage when he picked paul ryan for just this reason because he's willing to engage that battle. we know we have a president who has just this week said you can't do it. i can't do it. you can't change washington from the inside. he has given up. we know that on medicare. we have 12 years before we're going to be facing bankruptcy.

and the president took $117 billion and threw it into obama care. >> that's not true. >> it is true. >> and paul ryan did the same thing in his budget. >> paul ryan did not -- it is in medicare. it's being moved around. and what we will do is we will -- the president will put that right back into medicare. >> no. >> but the key is, when are we going to solve these problems? the president enjoys all of those perks of the office. when is he going to do the heavy lifting? we have medicare in serious trouble. heading to bankruptcy. a nation heading to bankruptcy. and what's he say? i can't do it. >> hold on one second. >> can i interrupt? >> david, go ahead. >> the mayor just laid out the solution. we're going to have a deal at some point, probably after some sort of national fiscal crisis, that the republicans are going to agree to raise the revenue. the democrats will agree to restructuinstruc restructure medicare. probably not been the election because it's politically hard, but that's the deal. and we'll solve it sooner or later but probably after a big national cries.

>> we'll also have a national debate, and dee dee you have been through this before, look at this from politico in terms of the anticipation of these debates mu debates. the numbers are quite high. 83% plan to watch all or some. is there too much built into the debates in terms of potential game changers? >> if you look at debates, they generally don't change or at least for the longer term the dynamic of the race. but mitt romney is taking it very seriously. it's possibly his last opportunity to really make a big impression. he started preparing for this months ago. he's spending a lot of time, as well he should. he has proven himself to be a good debater. he is a facts and figures guy. he practices and works very hard. and he won 16 of the 20 debates as the obama campaign will happily tell you in their effort to lower expectations in the republican primary. so i hope the president is taking it as seriously, and challengers also tend to do well just by being on stage with the incumbent they look presidential. >> can he still win, joe? >> of course he can still win. like i said, we've got four debates left. 45 days left.

dee dee knows better than anybody else, i mean, the old saying, i think it was harold mcmillan who said in politics a week is a lifetime. give anybody 40, 45 days and they can change everything. the biggest concern is the attitude in mitt romney's head right now, when he says that they don't need to turn the campaign around, when you have stewart stevens and others basically saying full steam ahead, that's a problem. if they start getting specific, like bay said they are going to, they can win. >> but this is what's key. we are going to be able to challenge the president on his record. to make him start defending his lousy record and to explain why he is unable to create jobs and give opportunities -- >> 4.5 million jobs. >> let him defend one in six americans in poverty, one in seven americans in food stamps. that is a debate we welcome. something that the media has not been willing to challenge him on. >> this is getting serious, bay. >> can we just have a feel-good

moment maybe? we got to tip a cap quite literally to the playoff-bound nationals, the washington nationals. first time that that washington has had a playoff team since 1933, when i was just a boy. the painful thing it's against my los angeles dodgers. fdr was president when he was playing the giants in the world series and he said i'll have to sit on both sides. washington going all the way. thank you all for being here this morning. great discussion. it will continue. before we go, a programming note. you can watch my press pass conversation with denzel washington and michael phelps. we talk about the crisis facing america's young people and also their efforts at the boys and girls clubs of

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